Hi all. For those who do not know me, my name is Mark Chandler and I went to high school with Trevor. Trevor has been encouraging me to post something for awhile, but I’ve had reservations about posting something just for the sake of it. So, I waited until I actually had something that I felt strongly about (see below).
I had a conversation with a woman from work today in which she made a broad generalization that bothered me. It didn’t bother me so much at the time it was said, as it did when I had time to ponder the statement. The subject of the conversation was pertaining to her relationships with men and the statement that was made was something along the lines of “men are unable to express their feelings in the same way as women. Women say what is on their mind, while men keep their emotions bottled up. A woman has to pry in order to receive any meaningful expression from a man.” This is the broad generalization that was made. It’s not exactly a novel statement, as I suppose everyone reading this has heard similar generalizations made on this subject.
It is my firm belief that this societally accepted principle of men being unable to express their feelings is an antiquated one possibly based upon generations of men that came before mine. I’m a 27-yr-old man, and it seems to me, or at least I want to believe, that this widely accepted “truth” is not true as it relates to men of my generation (or it is at least not AS true). No one has to force me to express myself and my feelings are regularly conveyed to close friends and loved ones. I can share my innermost feelings in a romantic relationship with a woman that I love and avoid feeling that this somehow makes me weaker or less “manly.” I can tell a male friend or relative that I love him without feeling strange about it or that this expression is in any way unacceptable. Obviously, there will always be men who are unable to express their feelings in a way that is contentable for those to whom he has a close relationship. However, I would assess that men of my generation are at the very least more advanced in this regard than the men of past generations.
My father and I have a relationship in which he generally expresses his love for me through his actions. For example, my father is an accountant and continues to do my taxes every year, and I am happy to let him, because a) I don’t really want to do them, b) I don’t want to screw them up, and c) I don’t want to pay someone from H&R Block to do them for me. Also, I will occasionally drive my car back home. Every time that I have done this, from college until now, without fail by the end of my visit, my car always has one or all of the following things: an oil change, a fresh wash, a full tank of gas. These are just a couple of the ways that my father expresses his love for me without actually saying the words, or giving me a hug. However, he will say the words back to me if I say them first. He will hug me back if I instigate the hug. I share all of this information about my relationship with my father, because it has been my observation that his expression of love toward my mother is very much the same (this having been said without actually knowing what words are expressed when he and my mother are alone together). So, while I have absolutely no doubt that my father loves his family, I would probably categorize him as the type of man to whom my friend at work was referring.
The reason for sharing this story about my father is that he is my frame of reference in terms of an older man and his ability, or lack thereof, to share his emotions. Is this a learned behavior? Quite possibly, as I tend to recall that my grandfather was a relatively dispassionate man. It is my belief that my father is able to orally express his emotions in a healthier way than my grandfather, and I, in a healthier way than my father. A Chandler men’s evolution of emotion-expressing, if you will.
Now, I realize that I have placed all men of my generation into one lump category, and that the more logical explanation is that everyone is different. Some men, regardless of generation, are more easily able to express themselves than others, for whatever reason. For the sake of this post, however, I am lumping men into categories based on age because I am interested in what others might think about the idea that certain generations are more or less reserved in terms of their expression of feelings.
The questions I would pose to you after reading this post are as follows: Is there an ample amount of evidence based on your experience in our culture to back up the sweeping statement that “men are unable to adequately express their emotions”? If so, do you believe there is a difference among generations of men, or do men of all generations fall into the category of those who are unable to share their feelings with loved ones? To what degree is a man’s ability to express his emotions based on what he has learned from his father or father figure(s)? Are women truly more advanced than men when it comes to sharing feelings, or is this just another stereotype that has been perpetuated through the years?
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Hi Mark.
I’ve been thinking about this, hoping my answer would solidify. I hasn’t. I think that yes, it’s partly generational and is improving, but I also think there is still a discrepancy between men and women in general. A lot of it is probably how men are being raised. It’s probably still more accepted in a lot of homes for the girls to express their emotions more than the boys. I think a lot of it is learned from their father in one way or another, but who am I to know this?
I don’t know if it’s innate, though. My feeling is that it might be partially. I have a friend who is a psychologist who says that when he has men and women write about their feelings it has been really easy for the women, but much more difficult for the men.
So many different factors…
Also, it’s been my experience with the men I’ve known and the women I’ve known that the women are definitely more able to express their feelings.
ps. how can I edit my damn comments?
It’s very nice to meet you, Mark. And your dad. Thanks for posting.
Alright. I’ve not been brave enough to respond, but some drinks and some Adult Swim have fortified me.
Yeah, learned. And yeah, generational, at least until we have some sort of backlash cultural revolution when one generation will want to be all touchy feely with its kids and the kids will revolt and call their parents Sissy La-Las (I think that’s a technical term–at least it’s in vogue with the military).
But severely Western-specific.
And also very, very classed. I strongly suspect that though we live among these hearty midwesterners and have farmer grandfathers, that everyone in this coop is of a touchy-feely trending demographic. Cultural capital plus rising middle class. [And if that statement doesn’t get Trevor going, I don’t know what will.]
I am loathe to stereotype these people, but I wonder if the trend (though maybe still there) is less among the people I’ve studied–NASCAR fans and military families.
I feel challenged by the hi-may, but I don’t know if I have a specific response to her statement. There is certainly a rising class issue to men being more open, there is a soft-hands approach, if you will.
And I get to cheat, I know the mayor, big Ron, and was actually a little surprised by the characterization of him here. I can also say it doesn’t surprise me, we are all children of farmers.
So, what is the stereotype? I have been very interested in Maria’s description of her boys. She states, and I have no reason not to believe her, that she didn’t want to gender her children. But, they are BOYS. They thrive off a physical. I can throw Dukes and T-Man around like no other, my niece doesn’t even come close to being that open to being put on her head. So, is there some innateness to it? Child development tells us that girls are more verbal than their male counterparts, in many ways that never stops.
My view is also very skewed from the place I work. I work in an office of 20, there are 3 male employees, one is gay and doesn’t know it, the other is a poet. I was in a grad program with two other men. One wore fishnet bodysuits under proper suits to class and the other was an African. That being said, I don’t find myself in macho environments. Neither do you Mark.
I guess, what I am saying, is that our view is myopic. I know a male world exists out there, I am just not in it. Men’s men exist, but the only man’s man in my world want other men.
So, I guess. You are full of shit. That woman’s take on the world is out of date, except I am so far removed from the world at times, I don’t have any clue. I have always been attracted to men who can get loaded, sing Rent, and tell me they love me.
No real answer there.
I would like to say I love reading Chandler write, and we should encourage it as much as possible, because the fucker can write. I am producing the movie/editing the book whenever it is time to get it out. I created this blog partly for him.
Keep writing Marty.
“A Chandler men’s evolution of emotion-expressing, if you will.”
And I mean that all lovingly, of course. By full of shit, I mean I am as well. I think we are in a position of white collar where our response to this is different from those who haven’t lived in this environment.
The interesting part to me is that your dad is fully white collar and yet lived in a different existence than you and I.
I guess that means that our fathers, Ron and John, both brought us into a white-collar world that was devoid of all the cultural baggage they had to deal with.
So, by, you’re full of shit, what I am saying is, they were hoping we would be able to live in a more open environment.
Too much?
Trev:
Ick. You were talking astutely about class, and then you’re back in touchy feely land suddenly: “they were hoping…” Your post end with a mushy bleh of “The Secret,” hoping for the future to be better nonsense. You’re talking as if people have agency, can change their shit. Really? What happened to The Day After Tomorrow?
Isn’t that the day after tomorrow?
There have to be those they recognize it, and those who can actualize?
Maybe they were the day and we were tomorrow?
too much! I really doubt the emotional expression of their sons was the reason they decided to free themselves from hard-ass manual labor blue-collar jobs.
I don’t think the idea that women generally express their emotions better is out-dated at all. I do think that it’s a sign of our times that we aren’t allowed to recognize any innate differences between men and women. it’s all just too un-PC. Some stereotypes are true. Are Asians short? Yes. It’s a fact. And they’re bad drivers. Even Asians will tell you this.
Let’s think about this for a second. If you get a group of all women together, what is the experience? For me, it’s been a lot of talking about relationships with friends and men, and feelings, and stresses, gossip. Basically a lot of talking about what goes on in their inner lives. A group of all men? John tells me video games, sports, movies, jokes, funny stories…My experience being the only woman in a group of men - it is very different. Not inner life/feelings stuff.
I think, of course, that some men can express their feelings very well. I know some, but they are an exception I find. Sorry, some of you guys are not the norm. Deal with it.
bah! There is some truth to that. The expression of whatever is given to those that don’t have to work so hard. More to say, but I do believe that a bit.
According to my experience, environment has much more to do with this than gender. I am historically a poor feelings-discusser. My two sisters and I are all equally inept at showing and/or discussing feelings. It’s just something we never were taught by our first-generation white collar parents. Once I told my mom on the phone that I loved her, and she thought I must be dying of cancer; she was completely flabbergasted. Twenty six years of being a parent couldn’t prepare her for it. She never learned to discuss her feelings, so she could never teach me to do it. My dad is pretty much the same way.
And the idea that this is a learned behavior is, to me, very good news. It means I’m not stuck. In fact, I’ve finally gotten some good role models and I’m getting better every day.
Love,
-John M
this is fun!
OK, I’m fairly embarrassed to admit that the factor of class never even entered into my thoughts on this issue. Obviously, this makes some sense in regards to my own personal experiences mentioned in the initial post (grandfather - paper mill worker, father - city finance director, me - lowly employee for theatre advertising business). I can also easily concede to the point that I do not hang out with a “manly” class of men. I’m not working/socializing with coal miners or steel workers, and as most men in a white-collar environment, the majority of my coworkers are women. So, i suppose that Trevor is correct in his assertion that my viewpoint of how men behave is sheltered to an extent. It’s entirely likely, as my friend so eloquently put it, that i am “full of shit.”
I also found John’s comments very helpful in further delving into what has made me, me. His story about his mother has caused me to reflect upon the fact that my mother is extremely emotional and has always been more than willing to share her feelings (to the point that i just have to walk into a room and she tells me that she loves me). In this way, maybe the product of the “emotional me” was not as much an evolution of the men in my family as an amalgamation of the greatest male and female influences in my life.
Also, i want to touch on one of the points in Liz’s last comment section, regarding men and women and their interaction in groups of the same sex. One of the questions that I posed at the end of my initial discourse was whether or not women were really more advanced than men in terms of expressing themselves. Obviously, Liz believes that they are, as many stereotypes are based in truth. Quite honestly, I actually agree with this as well. Women as a whole, probably are more advanced as it relates to this issue.
I too will admit that the topics of conversation that Liz points out as male issues (as provided by John) are pretty much the same issues that are discussed when i’m hanging with a group of male friends. (SIDE NOTE: We should at some point discuss the very different ways in which men and women bond with each other and how cool those are…) As men conversing, we’re generally not discussing our feelings and relationships, nor are we trading gossip. I will take Liz’s word for it, as I have no problem accepting that these ARE the issues discussed by women when in an environment of other women. However, just because men don’t express their emotions as often as women do, does this make them any less adept in the act of expressing them? I don’t have any problem believing that women are able to vocalize their feelings at a greater rate than men, some may even discuss their feelings ad nauseam. The generalization that I originally took offense to, is the notion that men are somehow unable to share their emotions without first being prodded to do so. The notion that I, as a man, am so guarded with my feelings that i keep them bottled up and am unable to verbalize them in a meaningful way to my loved ones.
But maybe Liz is right, maybe some men are the exception to the rule, and many are unable or unwilling to express themselves. Perhaps i give myself too much credit and am not nearly as advanced as i perceive myself to be in terms of sharing.
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